10 Questions with Patrick Bratton

Patrick Bratton is the owner of Sala Della Spada in Carlisle, Pennsylvania and specializes in Italian military sabre and dueling sword, circa 1600-1900. CombativeCorner founder and fencing instructor Michael Joyce recently had the honor of bringing Patrick down to Winston-Salem, North Carolina for a workshop in dueling sabre. Directly afterwards, he agreed to answer both our students and readers questions in our popular interview series, “10 Question.”

Without further ado….

What brought you to an interest in fencing, and what brought you toward the Italian methodology in particular?

From a very young age, I was interested in swords and knights. As a young kid, I made armor out of trashcans and plastic flower pots and “fenced” with my dad. In the early 1990s, I got more serious training in a Korean karate style that had some weapons, and also Olympic fencing, the SCA shortly, and some other things. It was the early days of historical fencing and “proto-HEMA” then (when sources and interpretations were just coming out) like Terry Brown’s English Martial Arts. As the 1990s grew to a close, I went to grad school and had other priorities, so I stopped doing any fencing. However, I watched the renaissance in historical fencing from a distance in the 2000s. In 2013, as I was getting older, I was searching for something to keep me active and I thought, why not go back to historical fencing? So I approached Colin Chock, who ran an Olympic fencing club that also did some historical fencing. Colin got me back into fencing.

My main interest was to learn some sort of historical sabre, so I looked for manuals and interpretations. At first, I was dissatisfied with many of the simple military sabre manuals I read through. They were mostly military drill manuals that listed a few guards, and then cutting and parry exercises, and little else. Then I found Chris Holzman’s translation of the Del Frate/Radaelli sabre manual, The Art of the Dueling Sabre. It was a revelation: here was a complete fencing system, applied to sabre, not only a set of basic drills, which is often the case with sabre books. I reached out to Chris and asked about visiting him and training with him and he was very encouraging. Working with Chris over the years converted me over to Italian fencing, he’s been a fantastic mentor. So it was only another step to start with the Sonoma State University Fencing Masters Program and to start working with Maestro John Sullins, Maestro Frank Lurz, and others. Beyond traveling to train with Chris, in Pennsylvania I train with Andrew Bullock (who was a student of Lajos Csiszar, who was a student of Italo Santelli) and I study various historical style with Mark Donnelly (one of the founding fathers of the British historical fencing movement).


As the owner of a fencing sala/salle, what has been your biggest obstacle so far?

I created my school, Sala della Spada, very recently. Last year I concentrated on giving individual lessons, doing guest workshops, and teaching sabre at Men at Arms Martial Arts (a local HEMA club with some great people). I started regular classes only this year. So far, I’ve found two major obstacles. First is the familar one of finding space that you can rent/use while keeping fees reasonable. Thanks to Shifu Liam Cochran of Carlisle Kung Fu center, I’ve been able to start classes at his facility. Second, is how to attract a critical mass of fencers who want to learn for the long-term. This is difficult because historical and classical fencing occupies a niche market that falls between the cracks. Our methods and style will seem too old fashioned for those looking for Olympic fencing, but will also seem too structured and tradition-bound (and frankly too much like Olympic fencing) for many in the “HEMA community.” So we fall between those wanting hyper-competitive Olympic fencing with foil, sabre or epee, and hyper-competitive HEMA fencing that is longsword-focused. It is a challenge to find space between the two.


What is it about teaching that gives you the most joy?

I love teaching, period. Several things give me joy. The main thing is continuing and hopefully expanding the living tradition of Italian fencing that I’ve learned. In his foreword to Chris Holzman’s book, Maestro Sullins wrote,

Every generation we are called to rediscover the challenge and grandeur of fencing. We are the inheritors of a long living tradition and this book is worthy offering to the great men and women who have preserved the noble art and science of fencing — may it inspire you to add to its legacy.

That statement means a great deal to me. More than anything, I feel I carry a duty to continue this tradition, learn as much as I can, and pass it on to others. I also just love to see people learn and develop while having a great time.


What is your favorite technique or “go-to” a competitive bout and can you describe your process?

I love working the basics and being able to set up a particular phrase. Fencing is a combination of intensely training instinct and muscle memory, and also actively thinking about tactically defeating your opponent. Maestro Francesco Loda once explained to me in a lesson, “Fencing is the art of establishing a conversation with an opponent and then lying to them.” Through probing actions and first intention attacks you get a sense of the opponent and you try to socialize them to how you fence. Once you establish that communication and trust, you deceive them and hit. While I don’t often do this successfully, it is a goal I continue to work towards.


Many people these days take pride in doing things based on one particular person, period or style (i.e. Radaellian vs. Parise, Judo vs. Jujitsu, etc). How do you feel personally about blending or keeping things “pure”? Do you wrestle with finding the “true path?”


That’s a good question. In one sense the answer is easy, the Northern Italian system of Radaelli is pretty clear. It’s one of the most documented fencing styles with many detailed books written by a number of Masters. Moreover, there is a living tradition of the style I’ve learned from students of the Santelli lineage (Chris and Andrew). So it’s easy to be “pure” in a sense. However, this tradition didn’t just spring like Athena from Zeus’s head. It has a long developmental path that you can see in Italian sources going back to 15th century. So I enjoy looking at older material to see the similarities and differences between what they taught in the 1500s or 1680s to that of the 19th or 20th centuries. I’ve been doing some training in Bolognese material and also the Roman-Neapolitan rapier of Marcelli. Even beyond the Italian tradition, there was cross-over development with French fencing in Northern Italy, and Spanish fencing in Southern Italy. So some study of these traditions is useful even if its not my main focus, I do read and interact with the French smallsword and foil community, and also I’ve been doing some work with the Iberian montante to get insights into how the spadone (the Italian great sword) was used.

In your opinion, what are your top 3 fencing films and why?


Fencing films. That is a tough one. It’s popular in the historical fencing community to make fun of fencing in films because it’s “not realistic.” I try to take a middle road approach and enjoy good fencing in films for what it is. The Duelistsis perhaps the best film for dueling, debates about honor, the fight chorography of William Hobbs, and general atmosphere. While it’s not a great film, the middle sequence in the film Sunshine about the Hungarian fencer working his way up to compete in the Olympics is quite good (though I’m biased because this is part of my own Italo-Hungarian fencing lineage). Lastly, the final duel in Mark of Zorro with Tyrone Power and Basil Rathbone is my favorite scene. It’s nice clean, sabre fencing, without the Hollywood hijinks of hanging from chandeliers. Also, Basil Rathbone could actually fence.

As someone who loves the art of the sword (sabre especially), what do you think about Olympic or modern fencing and the techniques of modern sabre in particular)?

This is a tough question. I have a great deal of respect for modern Olympic fencing, even though I don’t like where right of way has gone in the past 20 years. HEMA has a long way to go in and much to learn from Olympic fencing in terms of (1) level of instructor preparation and pedagogy; (2) level of intensity of training; and (3) the large talent pool you can fence and compete with. However, I find that the excessive focus on athletic and tactical training detracts from an inclusive method of teaching fencing. It focuses almost exclusively on getting young athletes ready for competition. I’d rather focus on teaching solid fundamentals to people of all ages and ability levels. Anyone can enjoy fencing and anyone can become a competent fencer. I want to help people do this.


It is hard to juggle work, personal life, social life and making time to fit in time to train for yourself. How do you go about making time and what does your personal training entail?

Balance is hard. I got back into fencing in my mid-30s because as I got older, it was harder and harder to motivate myself to exercise. The challenge of fencing and getting better at it is a powerful motivator for me to exercise, so that helps me find that balance. My own training week is normally a balance of (1) classes or lessons where I am a student 2-4 hours a week; (2) classes or lessons where I am the instructor 3-5/hours a week; (3) kung-fu cross training 2-3 hours a week; (4) general conditioning/strength training (I’m a fan of TRX bands and Indian clubs) 2-3 hours/week; and (5) solo fencing practice 2-3 hours/week.


In your opinion how long and what qualities are needed to become a “master” of a particular weapon in fencing?

I have a traditional fencing/martial arts concept of “master” that originates in the 19th century military masters schools. I do not think of masters as “mystical legendary swordsmen” from fantasy novels or martial arts films. A Master is a person who is fully versed in a particular system of fencing, with good experience in both fencing and teaching fencing, trained in how to teach successfully, and who ideally passed a certification board of other masters in the same tradition. A master needs to be a competent fencer, but not necessary a top tournament competitor. In fact, many top competitive fencers do not make good teachers.


Apart from training, teaching and running as school, what does Patrick Bratton like to do in his spare time?



Fencing is a big part of life so that occupies much of my spare time. As with most people interested in historical or classical fencing, I love studying history, particularly the early modern to modern period from 1500-1960 or so. I also have an interest in the history of men’s style, particularly from the 1930s. I enjoy old films from that same period, and I love to travel.

 

Bonus Question:


If you could meet and train with any fencer or martial artist in history (past or present), who would you choose and why?

There are many masters I would love to study with. The top two would be either Radaelli for sabre or Marcelli for rapier. However, working with either of the Santellis or Barbasetti would have been great. I dabble a bit with Bolognese so I would also have enjoyed working with Marozzo, in particular to fill in all those puzzling gaps we have in that tradition.

FIN.

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For more information on Patrick Bratton and Sala Della Spada, be sure you visit their website Sala Della Spada, or find them onFacebook.

10 Questions with Huang Chun-Yi

How did you come across fencing and in particular, fall in love with historical weapons?

I liked to read literature and watch movies since I was in my childhood. After I came across a YouTube video on longsword fencing, I started to search for historical manuals and checked if what I found really existed. I found that sabre also interests me a lot. Around 2014-2015, I found my teacher through my friend in Czech Republic. Then my teacher come to Taiwan to teach.

What do people of Taiwan think about European swordsmanship and has it caught on in popularity? Why or why not?

European swordsmanship is very new in Taiwan, and is developing quite slowly. The main reasons are the native culture and the culture distance. The society in Taiwan is dominated by Japanese  and Chinese martial arts because of the history background. The image on European swordsmanship largely comes from movie or fantasy. It is difficult to change in a short time.

What’s one thing that you feel all beginners should know?

Friendship. Sharing the knowledge and interests in a friendly way can shorten the road of learning. Making friends can help the growth of the community and broaden your thoughts. Test and work on the needs not only in fencing but also life together. Maybe you can find your lifetime partner or even mentor.

Is there anything else that you do in your life that helps you to be a better fencer, teacher, or both?

Both.  I was working as a teacher, which helps me understand more on the method of education, and psychology of learning. I am also a medical laboratory technologist; I know body mechanisms and some sport science through my university education. The most important thing is gaining lots of info and experience from other fencers and teachers.

What do your parents think of what you do and have you gotten any of them to fence?

They understand what fencing is and can differentiate the difference between modern fencing and historical fencing. They are supportive, and my father is the first one to show me fencing, but they don’t have time to fence themselves.

Your descriptions says you teach from the teachings of Luigi Barbasetti. Is there a big difference between this or other styles of fencing? What would that be in your words?

If you compare the Barbasetti style with other sabre style, the biggest difference is the moulinet which is from the elbow. And the style also emphasizes on a more direct cut.

Do you compete? Or is sparring enough? Why or why not?

No, I don’t compete for now, but I do teach how to deal with competition. I also do sparring with friends inside and outside of the club. The reason why I don’t compete and prefer sparring is that the mindset is different. Of course it depends on the rules of the competition. From my experience, the competitor’s main goal is to win the medal, so they will go whatever way is the best and easier to get the most points. You can learn how to fence in high pressure and face different opponents, and it is a way to test yourself. But for sparring, we can set the goal and work on what we need. Both are good to progress yourself, just a different way to train.

It is really hard (in the U.SA.) to make a living as a teacher, especially to teach the martial arts as a main source of income. Do you teach professionally only, or do you have other jobs?

I have another job as a teacher, and doing some business. In Taiwan, it is hard to teach martial art as a job. The society generally aims at the competition over the “real life” fencing.  It is seen as  entrainment, or a sport, not a serious thing.

The market is very small and we can’t ignore the people who do the sport fencing and other martial arts. People don’t tend to change when they get used to one thing.

 

Besides your love for swordsmanship, what else does Huang Chun-Yi like to do in her spare time?

I like music, culture and historical study. I also like to travel and visit historical sites with my partner. Hiking is also one of my favorite things – especially with my family, and friends.

Where does Huang Chun-Yi think she’ll be in 10 years? Are there any big goals in mind? If so, what might that be?

That is a good question, but it is hard to say what and where I will be after 10 years. Maybe I won’t be doing fencing and get married – Or even move to another country! I am sure that I will travel to more countries and keep learning things though.

Bonus Question:

If you could learn from any martial art teacher of the past or present (NOT Barbasetti), who would it be and why?

Giuseppe Radaelli. He is the one who largely introduced the elbow moulinet, the use of the thumb grip on the sabre, and using of light sabre (compared to other sabres in the same period). He taught in the military and cavalry and was a good teacher. I would like to discuss his book, the differences from mounted sabre to his light sabre with him.

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10 Questions with Samantha Swords

What got you into swords and sword fighting in the first place? And how did you become “Samantha Swords?”

I’ve always loved European swords, from a really young age. I wasn’t interested in other culture’s weapons, or satisfied with what I saw in movies or the reenactment world. When I discovered in 2006 that there was a rich martial tradition around medieval swordsmanship, I felt it was confirmation of something I had always known deep down, and I could focus my passion into research and training.

In 2012, I had a big break after we wrapped on ‘The Hobbit’ and I decided to prioritise my work as an artist. I started new social media accounts for sharing my illustration and my activities, and used the nickname I’d sometimes been called when people were saving my number in their phones- it was how some of my friends thought of me. So when I started to get noticed the next year, everyone used the name I had on my accounts. It stuck! I’ve always been clear that it’s a nom-de-plume, but it’s easy to remember, and a great description of what I do.

What was it like and what was your role in the famous Weta Workshop?

It was wonderful working with the team at Weta. The workshop gathers such amazing, world-class artisans, and the level of skill and creative potential under one roof is phenomenal. It’s full of contrasts though, because you have the boundless creativity of the people and resources, but it’s all constrained by the limitations of a practical film production. No project is ever the same, and the team have to adapt constantly to new challenges. It’s not exactly restful! I think that’s what makes it so truly great, though, is being able to thrive under that constant pressure.

My role was ever-changing. Weta have dozens of fabrication departments and when I first got started, I didn’t have a particular specialised background. So I went wherever there was need for a technician. Over the years I got to work with props, costumes, armour, prosthetics, metal, wood-work, the leather room, sculpting and 3D modelling, the miniatures department, painting, molding… I can’t quickly name all the jobs I did, but I had exposure to most of the areas of Weta. Learning under all those top artists in their fields was an extraordinary experience.

Also, being in an environment of shared excellence teaches you that once you hand over what you make to someone else, it’s no longer yours. That’s a really important lesson to learn as an artist, to value the skill over the object, and to not take what happens to your work personally.

From the looks of your social media, you engage yourself in many different martial art experiences. Some people fear “jack of all trades, master of none.” What’s your opinion?

Well, I’m definitely a Jack! I think there’s no problem with increasing your knowledge and skills in all areas as long as you know what is most important and can commit to doing it professionally when that skill is needed. As a freelancer working in a competitive, highly-creative and also punishing industry, being able to adapt and upskill fast is vital in order to thrive. That behaviour might be damaging in a more stable career, and I can see how the idea of being a Jack could be threatening to many people. It’s uncertain and risky, and requires a lot of energy to be able to constantly adjust to new challenges. Ultimately, if you are a Jack, I think it’s important to be able to know yourself and to be aware of whether the kind of growth you’re doing is about avoidance of a difficult challenge, or exploration of an exciting new area that could bring knowledge and perspective to what you do.

In 2013, you entered and won the Longsword division in the Harcourt Park Jousting Tournament. What was that tournament like? And was that different from any of the other events you’ve done in the past?

The tournament was part of a much larger, established sports event which centred around jousting, and brought competitors from maybe ten different countries. In previous years the longsword and other ground martial arts had drawn a large pool of fighters, but for several different reasons it was much smaller in 2013. I wasn’t thinking about winning at all, just wanted an opportunity to test my training and so I was very relaxed about the whole thing. It was very different from my other competitions, which had felt much more stressful, and each time I’d really cared about the results. My tension always worked against me, of course, so not fretting about the event was the best thing I could do.

The judges running the 2013 event were testing a new rule set as well. It favoured defensive fighting to avoid the constant mutual strikes that plague many weapons-based tournaments. In my year, we all started with hit points and had to defend them, rather than the usual method of claiming points from an uncooperative opponant. It emphasised caution, self-defense and was completely suited to how I had been training.

The story of me winning that event has really got a life of its own. Even though I’m proud of how I fought that day, it’s been extremely odd to have so many people focus on only that, especially when there is so much more going on in my life and in the HEMA community.

Since that winning the longsword tournament, have you ever considered continuing and competing in HEMA competitions? If not, how come?

I’m not huge into competition at the moment. When I was actively competing, I was much younger as a martial artist and all I wanted to do was fight! That was fun for a few years, but once I understood how hard it is to actually judge competitions, my interest shifted into learning good self-defense rather than being good in the ring. They’re quite different ways of fighting and training. Much of the dominant HEMA scene is centred around large, impressive competitions, which is terrific for expanding the community! It’s so exciting to see how large we have grown in such a short time. I feel bad that I’m not interested in going to them right now, but even before I’d gotten well-known, I’d decided to take a break and focus on other areas of improvement. Currently I really enjoy smaller events where people can share their training and spar informally, and test things out. There’s so much I want to learn.

What style/method of longsword do you study (or have you studied)? What made you gravitate to this style and/or stick with this style?

I love Fiore Dei Liberi’s tradition, and the Getty Manuscript. The wealth of anatomical information that ‘The Flower of Battle’s artist included is extraordinary, and I feel it’s still largely untapped. Also, it shows an efficient and practical system that’s more about the fighter than the weapon they’re using. That approach really appeals to me now. That’s such a turnaround from when I was young, where all I wanted was to learn about the sword. Now, I want to understand everything around the sword as well.

Being in the film industry as well, what parts have you played and what part was your favorite so far?

In the film industry, for every movie that gets made, there are at least five that don’t. Most of my favourite acting parts have been for productions that have fallen over. And, because of the high level of confidentiality, you can never talk about them or take photos or anything. Not including theatre, all my favourite roles have been for films that were put on the shelf. Sorry! All I can say is that they have been action-adventure characters who have a bit of depth to them, and I loved that.

How do you juggle your life – with acting, sword-making, writing, traveling and instructing?

Juggle is a good description! Some times of my year are busier than others, and I have to work very hard to stay on top of different commitments. I put a lot of hours into everything, and cut out the things I think are a waste of my time so I can focus more on what’s important. Sometimes I don’t mean to cut things out, but they just drop off the side anyway. For the most part, my work is project-based so I have a clear start and end, and can fit my different activities around that in block periods. Having seasonal interruptions does get frustrating when I want to build on something over a long period, though. And it makes it really hard to train. I have to be flexible about how and where I practice, and be disciplined enough to keep it up when I’m away from traditional training places. It’s not easy, but I love that I get to do so many things.

For anyone wanting to get into historical fencing for the first time, what would be your advice?

Find someone or something to get you started, and make time in your week to practice. Having a clear inspiration is important, as well as a space you can go to learn. You don’t need a club, but it does help. Most swordsmanship clubs are warm and welcoming, but if you feel like it’s not a good fit it’s okay to look elsewhere. If you’re nowhere near a club, you’re in good HEMA company: so many groups begin really modestly, with a few people figuring out how to fence together in the middle of nowhere. As long as you have clear safety practices, there’s no reason you can’t set something up yourself. There is so much support online- the HEMA Alliance will guide you to good resources.

Get the best tools and equipment you can, within reason. You can always sell it if you find you don’t want to commit to swordsmanship long-term. Having good tools will help your education more than anything other than a good teacher. If it’s your first time using weapons, practice control and coordination before applying speed and power. Accuracy is much more subtle in sword arts, and an inch of contact with a sword is much more lethal than the same with a kick or a punch! As much as you can, always reevaluate and test what you’re learning. HEMA grows from individuals taking on research and challenging what they find. That’s part of the excitement, too- we all have a chance to contribute to genuine exploration of something nearly lost in the past.

Apart from your profession, what else does Samantha like to do in her free time?

Anyone following my Instagram knows that I have a great love of animals, as well as getting out and about. When I’m at home I’ll read or draw or play video games or watch Netflix, often covered with several of my rats. They’re really loving and intelligent and bring me a lot of joy. I like fixing things, or making new things from broken ones. I also adore going hiking or snowboarding, and when I can I go into the mountains for a week. My responsibilities make that hard at the moment, though.

 

What is your favorite fictional character and why?

My favourite character of literature is Lisbeth Salander, from the Millennium trilogy. She’s extremely strong, fierce, wildly intelligent, free of doing what people expect of her, and wants to be left alone. She’s an androgenous anti-hero and I never get tired of reading those books, even though they cover very difficult subject matter. I don’t feel as attached to the movies, although I like the casting choices in both the Swedish and American versions. My next favourite character is Hobbes, of Calvin and Hobbes. I feel I don’t need to explain him, though.

We’d like to thank Samantha for providing answers to these questions and if you have any additional questions, please comment below and perhaps we can have her answer them in the near future.  If you want to learn more about her, you can find her on Facebook and Tumbler. 

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10 Questions with Keith Farrell

How did you get drawn into fencing and why classical/historic over modern/sport?

As a child, I was interested in history, and enjoyed watching historical battle reenactment shows. At around the age of 10, I joined a local karate club, and began to enjoy martial arts. At around the age of 16, I joined a historical battle reenactment society, mainly as an excuse to play with swords. However, after a little while, I lost interest in the show fighting aspect of it, and wanted a more ”correct” way of using the sword.

Then, when I was in my second year at Glasgow University, I found a club that was teaching historical European martial arts, according to historical source material. Initially, due to my previous martial arts training, I didn’t enjoy it very much: the club was still very young as a study group, and the instructors did their best to understand the source material, but I didn’t enjoy learning a random assortment of tricks that tended not to work, mainly because the interpretations were still in their infancy and were not supported by effective body mechanics.

Eventually, in 2010, I decided to start studying the longsword again, with different source material, and I was lucky enough that my first choice of source was one that described principles and how techniques fit together into a system. As a result, I could see that there WAS a system to follow, there WERE a set of guiding principles; even though I didn’t understand how to go any of the techniques, I knew that I could at least work on the gist of the system and fill in the specifics later.

That journey of research, testing, and exploration is still ongoing!

What brought you to become such a prolific author and how did you choose your projects?

Since I was trying to wrap my head around the historical source material anyway, and was taking copious notes, I thought that other people might find this work to be useful. So, once my colleague (Alex Bourdas) and I finished our initial longsword research project, we began to arrange our notes into a cohesive document, and this culminated in our first publication: the AHA German Longsword Study Guide.

By the time this was published, I had begun to enjoy the practice of a variety of other HEMA disciplines, including the Scottish basket-hilted broadsword. I decided to make another study guide, this time for the broadsword. I thought it would be useful for my students to have a published text with history and context, our principal source material, and some salient points for study. I also decided to include my research about singlestick, as this was something that I wanted to know more about myself, yet at the time, there was little by way of modern research published on the subject. And so I came to publish my second book, Scottish Broadsword and British Singlestick.

All of my books have come about because I found researching a subject to be of particularly great interest. My intention with all of my books is to make available the research and information that I wish I could have had access to myself when I began my HEMA studies. This desire and intent has kept me going and has given me the motivation to publish several books, with more in the works!

Do you have a passion for one particular weapon over all the others and if so, why?

The medieval longsword is a wonderful, wonderful kind of sword. It can be found in so many shapes and sizes; and there are also so many different treatises on the use of the longsword that I simply cannot envisage a time when I will no longer have anything to learn about it.

The way of working with the longsword, of holding it and performing techniques, of moving from one action to the next, just speaks to me in a way that no other physical activity has in the past. It allows me to move and to express myself in a way that is deeply meaningful and that is impossible to achieve otherwise. It is just so much FUN to move and to fence with the longsword!

What does your sword training entail and how long do you train?

My typical weekly training involves giving two to three hours of private tuition to students, two to three times a week, and probably half an hour to an hour of assorted solo exercises on a daily basis. For the private tuition, I work on whatever skills are requested by my students, which may sometimes involve some sparring. However, I tend not to do very much sparring on a regular basis, and it’s even more rare that I have an opportunity to use sparring selfishly for my own development, instead of for coaching another person.

For my solo practice, it could be simple repetitions of cuts; it could be simple physical exercises such as push ups or squats, to build or maintain strength; it could be using my MBlades Swing¹ with Indian club exercises, to develop musculature around the elbow and shoulder; or it could be stretching in various fashions, to maintain or improve flexibility, but mainly to undo the damage of spending so much time sitting at my computer!

I use my solo practice time each day to keep myself in good and healthy condition. If I begin in good condition, then I will use the time to practise fencing techniques. If I’m not in such great condition, because I have been travelling or sitting too much, then I’ll use the time to deal with these problems and bring myself closer to my usual standard of health.

On quite a regular basis, on average at least once a month, I attend and teach at a national or international HEMA event. This gives me the opportunity to meet and fence with people outwith my usual circles, which is a fantastic opportunity to learn and to increase my skills. It also gives me the chance to chat and discuss ideas with some very knowledgeable people; so many of my significant developments in understanding have come in the bar, after hours, armed with a few pints and engaged in deep discussion! These events tend to be where I receive most input from other people to improve my own fencing skills, so I believe they are a critical part of my own training and development.

I don’t tend to worry too much about competing in tournaments at these events. If I have something I want to test and validate, then sure, I’ll give it a go. But I’m not a very competitive person, and I would much rather talk with people or do some friendly sparring than participate in a tournament. Still, I know that competitions are good for me, and force me to up my game, and I also believe that I owe it to my students to test my skills and interpretations regularly, so that I’m not teaching them any ineffective nonsense. So I do participate in a few tournaments a year, but I will almost never go to an event purely to compete.

Have there been any personal changes to your method/techniques that do not “jive” with what’s written by the masters of the past? If so, can you give us an example?

Over the years, I have found myself doing things a little differently to the instructions in the historical source material. Invariably, this has led to joint pains, muscle pains, injuries, and a lower rate of success in sparring and competition.

Leading to pains and injuries have been concepts such as striking mechanics. For example, in Roworth’s broadsword treatise,² he describes exactly how to perform a cut. I found myself not quite doing it the way he described; and sure enough, after a few months of this incorrect practice, I developed wrist pains that took the better part of six months to go away. What made the wrist pains go away? The solution was to change my striking mechanics to be exactly what Roworth described, and not to do it “wrong” anymore. That fixed the problem.

A common error with the longsword is either to overcomplicate or to oversimplify an action. The source material tends to describe techniques, principles and sequences in a relatively straightforward fashion, and it tends to make perfect sense if you just do what the book says. If you start adding extra actions, because you find it helps in slow and somewhat cooperative drills, then inevitably it will not work properly in sparring because you have made it too slow and too complicated.

By the same token, if the source says: “do this; do this other thing; then finally, do this third thing”, then there is probably a good reason for that. If you choose to simplify that series of instructions down to just: “do this thing that vaguely resembles the motion of those three instructions”, then you lose some of the important elements of the technique, and it probably won’t work anymore.

So I have found that buckling down and just doing what the sources describe, paying attention to details, but not adding anything of my own, is the best way to achieve success without compromising my joints and health.

For those people interested in learning more about historical sword fighting arts what are the top 3 books (besides your own) would you’d recommend and why?

Tough question. I have quite an extensive library, and I have read many excellent books, so there so many titles I could choose to answer this question. If someone were interested in learning just about any of the medieval or renaissance martial arts, then I would recommend the following resources:

1) B. Ann Tlusty: The Martial Ethic in Early Modern Germany.³ This is not a HEMA book, as such, but it sets the scene and lays out the context for the historical fencing arts in the Holy Roman Empire in the 15th to 17th centuries. I would go as far as to say that it is impossible to understand 16th century fencing systems (such as that of Joachim Meyer) without first having read this book. There are few books about which I wax lyrical, but this is one of them, and it easily earns first place on this list!

2) D.A. Kinsley: Swordsmen of the British Empire.⁴ Again, this book sets the scene and provides lots of valuable context, although it is not intended as a HEMA book. It is also not a book that covers medieval or renaissance martial arts; as the title suggests, it is a collection of primary sources and first hand accounts of close quarters combat experienced by men and officers in the service of (and opposed to) the British Empire, in conflicts across the world.

Since so few people today have any real or meaningful experience of violence (which is a good thing), we can fall into traps of imagining a Hollywood style of response of victims to sword actions, and we can very easily build a fantasy world of how effective techniques will be. The reality, as shown in so many of these accounts, is that people can survive the most horrendous wounds (sometimes several at one time), or they can die from the littlest wound. If we want to learn how to fight with swords, I think it is valuable to learn what swords are actually capable of doing, but also what they are not necessarily capable of doing.

3) http://www.wiktenauer.com – I know this is a website and not a book, but it is probably the most valuable resource available to anyone interested in historical European martial arts. It is a crowdsourced, collaborative research project, making available scans, transcriptions, and translations, of hundreds of historical martial arts treatises. It is hosted and sponsored by the HEMA Alliance, an umbrella organisation based in the USA, and it has managed to run some successful crowdfunding campaigns to raise money for purchasing high quality scans from museums and libraries around the world.

Again, I could wax lyrical about the Wiktenauer and how valuable it is, but I think the greatest joy would be visiting the site yourself, finding a treatise that sounds interesting, and seeing what the website has to offer!

What would be your advice to kid, teen or young adult who’s interested in historical fencing but doesn’t have a fencing salle or club nearby?

That is a remarkably common question. My advice would be to decide what it is you want to learn and why you want to learn it.

Do you want to learn to use a specific type of sword, because that kind of sword is really cool and inspires you in some fashion? Then get a book or DVD that will give you a basic understanding of that weapon and system, and start working on it in your back garden! Go through the guards of the system, attempt the cuts and thrusts, and generally just move with the sword in hand. Reach out to your local community and see if anyone would like to practise with you. You don’t need to be a master fencer, or a master teacher; you just have to have a book, arrange meetings, get people to show up, and be one lesson ahead of them so that you can keep everything moving forward.

Or do you want to learn to use a sword (any kind of sword) in general? Then see if there is a local club that does kendo, iaido, or modern fencing, and sign up to that. It might not be HEMA, but it will teach you some useful skills nonetheless. Then, when you feel a little more confident about handling a sword, follow the advice above and reach out to your local community to try and set up a HEMA club.

Another option, if you have money to spend, is to find an established HEMA school with an instructor who has an excellent reputation, and see if you can travel to that school for a week to take some deep and immersive lessons. There is a growing number of professional schools and instructors to be found in North America and Europe, so if you have the money to spend, this course of action will both support a professional HEMA person and will give you a solid grounding in the system that you would like to learn. Thereafter, once you return home, you will know what to practise, what to avoid doing because of risk of injury, and you will have someone to whom you can reach out with questions.

You can also find a Facebook discussion group such as the HEMA Alliance group, the UK HEMA group, or the HEMA International Discussion group, where you can ask questions, or post videos of your practice to ask for feedback. However, bear in mind that Facebook is what it is: a platform where people are encouraged to make fast, throwaway comments; that is not designed for finding archived material or reading discussions that have taken place previously. Although joining a Facebook discussion group can be useful, it is by no means as useful as developing a real friendship or working relationship with a well-respected professional instructor.

Who is your favorite swordsman of history and why?

My favourite swordsman from history would probably be either Donald McBane or Donald Macleod. They were both soldiers in Highland regiments of the British army, on the cusp of the 17th and 18th centuries, and they both left memoirs.

McBane wrote The Expert Sword-Man’s Companion in 1728, including his story, a treatise on artillery and gunnery, and various short treatises on fencing with a variety of weapons.⁵ If ever there was to be a Hollywood film made about HEMA, it should be a film about McBane’s life! He was a soldier, a thief, a pimp, a gambler, and a fencing master. He fought in several duels, in many brawls, and in a variety of pitched battles and sieges; he took many wounds, was blown up a few times, and still kept going. At the age of 63, he fought his final duel: a prizefight against a young Irish gladiator. Needless to say, McBane won this fight, and returned happily to his retirement.

William Thompson was Macleod’s biographer (as far as we can determine); and in 1791, he recorded Macleod’s reminiscences in a book with the rather long title: Memoirs of the Life and Gallant Exploits of the Old Highlander, Serjeant Donald Macleod, who, Having returned, Wounded, with the Corpse of General Wolfe, from Quebec, was Admitted an Out-Pensioner of Chelsea Hospital, in 1759; and is now in the CIII.d Year of His Age.⁶ Macleod was a stonemason’s apprentice, and then he ran away to become a soldier. He fought across Europe and North America. His exploits are quite fantastic, and while it is entirely possible that some of the stories are embellished, there is evidence to suggest that he was a real person, that he did indeed serve in the army, and therefore that he probably did fight in the battles in which he claims to have fought – or at least, some of them. Once Hollywood has finished making a film about McBane, I think Macleod would be an excellent choice for their second foray into the life of HEMA characters.

If you had the chance to be trained by 3 masters of the past, who would you choose and why?

I would probably choose Sigmund Ringeck, Hans Talhoffer, and either Johannes Lecküchner or Andre Lignitzer.

Ringeck was a member of the “Society of Liechtenauer”, and wrote glosses for Liechtenauer’s Zettel, the somewhat-cryptic verses that set out and recorded Liechtenauer’s system for fighting. He clearly understood Liechtenauer’s method, and was also able to add some of his own material to the system in a fashion that fits quite well and does not seem foreign or out of place at all. He was the fencing master to the Dukes of Bavaria, so clearly he was a skilled and valued instructor. He would be able to teach me about the core Liechtenauer method of fencing with the longsword, which is my principal area of study.

Talhoffer was a shady figure. He was a fencing master who taught people how to fight in preparation for judicial duels, and also provided training to some noble families. He authored several manuscripts on the subject of fighting with a variety of weapons. He was also an assassin and had more than one run-in with the law.⁷ He was clearly no academic studying just the theory of fighting: he dealt with the gritty details and fallouts on a day-to-day basis, and I think it would be fascinating to see the difference in his approach to fencing and violence compared with the approach (and health and safety consciousness) of modern practitioners.

Lecküchner was a priest who authored several manuscripts on fencing with the messer, the long knife that was often worn as a sidearm by civilians. Lignitzer was a fencing master who authored several treatises on wrestling, sword and buckler, fighting in armour, and fighting with the dagger. Both of these masters would be able to teach me valuable lessons about fencing with these weapons, and either would be an excellent complement to the team made up by Ringeck and Talhoffer.

We are now in the New Year. What resolutions do you have and/or goals for the year?

I spent most of the last two years not working particularly closely with the longsword source material. Instead, I tried to improve my fundamental skills, so that I would be able to perform the techniques and sequences described in these treatises. I had realised that while I knew a lot of theory, I couldn’t apply enough of it effectively when I was sparring. So instead of continuing to work on complicated things that I couldn’t make work, I decided to step back and work on the basics by improving myself as a fencer. I gave a presentation about this approach at the Iron Gate Exhibition event in 2015.⁸

This plan has worked well, and I am now considerably more competent than I was previously. I can apply more techniques in sparring, and I understand better what I need to do in order to make things work.

Therefore, my plan for 2017 is to return to the sources and spend more time involved with the books. I feel it is important to “touch base” with the sources, again and again, to ensure that we stay in the realm of recreating a martial art as accurately as possible, so that we do not stray into the realm of making stuff up. While some people enjoy making stuff up, in my opinion HEMA relies on source material.⁹ As I answered in question 5 above, disregarding the advice in the sources has led to pains and injuries, and to less effective performance in sparring and tournaments. So, why would I disregard source material and accept pain and injuries, and willingly choose a weaker and less effective performance of technical skills, if I can just follow what the sources say and avoid the pain and injury, and achieve better results in my fencing?

So, a return to the source material, spending a bit more time with the books again, letting new ideas and information percolate and then become part of my overall understanding; this would be my plan for the coming year.

Bonus Question

If you were a video game or fantasy character what weapon, magic and special skill would you possess?

I would have a sword, probably a longsword. It’s just too much fun not to have it in this sort of setting! I would have the special skill of finding enough trouble to make the story dramatic, but of not getting myself into inextricable or irretrievable situations. That would keep my life interesting without being too worried about dying. I think that sounds pretty good, on the whole!

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FOR MORE INFO ON KEITH FARRELL, VISIT HIS WEBSITE

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1 A sword with an extremely short blade, yet weighted to give the correct feeling of weight and balance of a real sword – very useful for training indoors with low ceilings! http://www.mblades.com/swing/

2 Charles Roworth; Ben Kerr and Keith Farrell (eds.). The Art of Defence on Foot, 1798. Glasgow: Fallen Rook Publishing, October 2014.

3 B. Ann Tlusty. The Martial Ethic in Early Modern Germany: Civic Duty and the Right of Arms. Basingstoke: Palgrave Macmillan, 2011.

4 D.A. Kinsley. Swordsmen of the British Empire. 1st ed. British Sword Fighters series, part 3. Lulu, April 2013.

5 Donald McBane; Ben Kerr (ed.). The Expert Sword-Man’s Companion, 1728. Glasgow: Fallen Rook Publishing, January 2015.

6 Keith Farrell (ed.). Memoirs of Serjeant Donald Macleod, 1791. Glasgow: Fallen Rook Publishing, May 2016.

7 “Hans Talhoffer: A Historical Martial Arts Blog by Jens P. Kleinau.” https://talhoffer.wordpress.com/category/a-life-like-that-of-talhoffer/

8 “IGX 2015 Lecture: Training Fundamentals, by Keith Farrell.” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voc_Txu7fYM

9 Keith Farrell. “What is HEMA to me?” Encased in Steel, 10th June 2016. http://www.encasedinsteel.co.uk/2016/06/10/what-is-hema-to-me/

10 Questions with Richard Marsden

Richard Marsden is a teacher, writer, and historical fencing instructor from Phoenix, Arizona.  I became familiar with his work early this year when I was searching for information on Polish military history.  His book, The Polish Saber caught my eye and was immediately dropped into my Amazon wish list.  So… dear loyal readers, due expect a review (which many Amazonian’s have listed as a 5-star book) by the end of the year.  As I got to know Richard from his Phoenix Society, Facebook page and website, I was certain that he belonged on our list of CombativeCorner interviewees.  Without further ado…. 10 Questions with swordsman-extraordinaire, Richard Marsden.

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What brought you to the world of historical fencing?

At 15, in the 1990s I was dragged by a self-proclaimed Hawaiian Prince, Nick Kalanawani Makai Among to Central Phoenix where the SCA, Adria and other groups met. I was put in Adria and quickly latched onto Greg Hinchcliff who had zero interest in dress up and a huge interest in swordsmanship. We had no manuals, nor did we appreciate them, but we had sideswords and rapiers and learned through fighting. Greg created his own organization, the Loyal Order of the Sword and we fought among ourselves for around 15 years. The group did not die so much as age out, and some of them are in HEMAA today. I even have a tattoo on my right shoulder with the group’s symbol and a custom ring or two. Greg is alive and well and is still the best fighter I have ever known. After the group dispersed I started one at the High School I teach at, and decided to focus on manuals. This was in 2006 or so. As the years ticked by I discovered more and more historical treatises and came across Jim Barrows who taught Italian Longsword at his house. For two years I worked with Jim and around 2011 John Phoenix and I decided to create our own group, the Phoenix Society of Historical Swordsmanship. Today, my group is the largest HEMA group in Arizona, and I have a host of students and instructors, including Jim Barrows, Kyle Cimerian, John Phoenix, Adam Simmons and up and coming Chris Phoenix. My students are many, but my longest is Randy Reyes, who I trust will be a HEMAA certified instructor in no time!

What is it about teaching swordsmanship that gives you the most joy?

I am a teacher by trade, so I must have a passion for it. My greatest joy is in seeing my students be successful, and better than that, my students’ students. This is now happening, and I feel I have done my job in passing on HEMA to others. Reviving a dead art means we need more people involved, more teachers, more students, and so forth. Small cults, led by a single irreplaceable sensei like figure, do not survive the sensei. I am hoping my cult lives beyond me. I am on a mission to spread HEMA, which is why I ran a High School club, run a large club, attend events, have served for years in the HEMA Alliance to expand services for HEMA, wrote a book, and plan to write more.

What principle/concept/exercise do you wish for your students to best understand/practice/embody?

All of them in the end. However to start with the simplest.

Hit and do not be hit.

Read treatises.

Make others better when you are better.

What is your favorite technique to use in sword fighting? Can you describe how it is executed?

There are no favorites, because every opponent is different and I have a host of techniques. However, for effective and or crowd-pleasing…

Inquartata. In rapier stand with your chest slightly presented as a target. When the opponent lunges, intercept in 4th, while your rear foot swings to the right and your hand flings back. You will then void, intercept and thrust your opponent in a showy display.

Agrippa, Capo Ferro, Giganti, Fabris all have variations of it.

When it comes to longsword I enjoy using Boar’s Tooth. Fiore spends a great deal of time explaining how to work from Boar’s Tooth and one I like is the deflection.

From Boar’s Tooth, have a wide stance, wait for the opponent to strike (make sure they are in measure). As the opponent strikes, the front foot moves a bit left and forward, but does not cross the rear. It’s like going from a wide stance to a narrow. Deflect with the false edge of the sword, batting the opponent’s sword to your right. Pass and cut them. I get fancy and do this from Boar’s Tooth but also Left Woman’s Guard and Left Window.

When it comes to Polish saber a cut to the opponent’s right with power, so they parry or get hit. If they parry, then pass while performing a reverse moulinet , where the blade spins backwards, and deliver the tip of the false edge into the opponent’s right wrist.

Invitations. Out of measure, or just barely in, strike any pose you want. The Lee Smith vs Richard Marsden saber fight on you-tube shows a couple of those.

Should all fencers with a love for historical fencing do HEMA? Why or why not?

That is for them to decide. I wave a flag and people come to me, I do not try to push people into HEMA.

How important or unimportant do you consider competition? Why or why not?

Sparring is important, which is a form of competition. Sparring strangers is important. One teaches application, the other teaches application against the truly unwilling. People who never spar are missing out on a valuable teaching tool. Sparring has its faults, but so do static drills.

Competition, such as tournaments are another matter. I have a host of medals, my club has buckets of them. We like tournaments, but we are well aware that they have faults. Tournaments are a good way to showcase one’s skill, meet new people, but also understand that there is a game element to it. There are rules, there are judges, there is a ring, and so forth. Again, like sparring, I think it is a good teaching tool.

You wrote a book on the Polish Saber. What brought you to this weapon in particular?

The introduction to the book explains! Go buy it…

Ok, so I watched a dueling scene set in 17th century Poland and asked myself, “Wonder what the system is really like?”

No set system.

Spotty research.

Not much in English.

How can I fix that?

Two years later, with international help, the book was made on what we think the Polish saber system of the 17th century on foot looked like.

Many instructors feel “A Jack of all trades, a master of none.” What do you feel about this as someone interested in many different weapons?

I have enough wins or placements in tournaments in different weapon systems to be a pretty good Jack of All trades, and some of the top performers today are the same. I find that you can’t focus on too much, so I have two or three I work on hard for a time, but I also find that by working with many different weapon systems, even if some for only a few weeks, gives me a greater understanding of HEMA as a whole.

Besides, Fiore for example was meant for wrestling, dagger, sword in one or two hands, spear, pole-axe, mounted and more!

Rapier treatises show single rapier, but also rapier and cloak, or dagger and so forth.

Even inside our systems there are nuances.

My suggestion for most is that they consider, longsword, rapier, single-stick/saber/ or sword and buckler at the same time. Each compliments the other, each teaches a specific set of skills. It’s ok to focus heavily on one, but delving into the others may be beneficial.

What goals do you have for the near future?

Ohhhh you know. Things. A podcast (history), HEMA-centric books, maybe put my Sci-fi novels up as a podcast, possibly another RPG with John Phoenix. More successful students and more HEMAA certifications within the Phoenix Society so one day they can go off and make their own clubs. I have spent a few years on working for others, so I may try to do some catch-up for myself. I need to up my stock portfolio so I can one day pull in a 1000 a month through dividends. I want to visit some places with my family. I’ll be at events for sure, and I’m in hot demand to teach abroad or give seminars, so I’ll work some of those in as well. I’d also like to see the HEMA Alliance continue to grow and support more members and affiliates and certify more people.

Maybe I will sit on the dunes of Arrakis and wonder when the sword-messiah will come from the outer worlds.

Spend time with the wife!

What does Richard like to do with his spare time outside of teaching and fencing?

I am a writer, and I do like video games, especially those with immersive stories like the Witcher 3 and GTA V. Here are my publications.

http://www.worksofrichardmarsden.com/publicationlist.htm

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BONUS QUESTION

You die and come back to life as a fencer from the past (real or fictional)…who is it and why?

Interesting one. I am often asked, “What time period would you like to live in?” My answer is, “This one, or 50 years from now is probably pretty awesome. I love A/C, good food, drink and video games and housing….”

But your question says if I had to be a real or fictional fencing person who?

Stilgar of Dune has a fancy knife, rides worms and gets to be in a long, confusing film, but with great imagery.

Syrio Forel from Game of Thrones would be divine justice of a sorts. Teaching… again.

Drizzt do Urden has twin scimitars, but… how would I pick anything up, and all that family drama.

The Emperor does know how to fight, he is a Master, and I get to rule the galaxy for a bit but then get thrown down a shaft that does not have proper OSHA safety precautions.

Solomon Kane, sure I’m dour, but… fighting evil.

Fiore lives in a rather violent time and had to kill/wound five men because he wouldn’t share his secrets. I’m not much into really killing or hurting people.

George Silver seems bitter.

Rapier masters all come across as prima-donas and chasing work.

Jan Pasek, a cool 17th century Polish noble and swordsman, but a life too filled with drama.  So, not for me as much as I love the guy.

Alfred Hutton…hmmm, good lifestyle, modern era, interested in HEMA, and seemed happy enough. Maybe him.

Maybe a highwayman?
Maybe a drop of rain?

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RICHARD MARSDEN

Phoenix Society of Historical Swordsmanship

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HIS LINKS

WEBSITE

THE POLISH SABER (BOOK)

PHOENIX SOCIETY FB PAGE

THE WORKS OF RICHARD MARSDEN

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